Posts by Island Man

20

How many JWs would Disassociate if their were no family sanctions?

by Chook in

i think the swamp would empty overnight .

Island Man

I think at least 5% would disassociate. I don't think it would be as much as 50%. But I believe that about 50% would probably immediately stop shunning disassociated relatives, and that number would grow gradually until shunning of disassociated relatives ceases altogether or becomes just the aberrant behavior of an over-zealous minority.

The thing to keep in mind is that there are other repercussions to disassociating, apart from shunning, and heavily indoctrinated Watchtower loyalists will impose these threats even without being prompted to do so by Watchtower. Some are employed with other JWs and risk losing their job. Some would still risk being disinherited. Some would risk being kicked out of the house. Some would risk being divorced on the trumped up grounds of "spiritual endangerment".

For this to really do good, Watchtower would not only have to remove the shunning sanction, but actively teach JWs that it is wrong to shun disassociated ones or punish them in any way. Here's a scary thing to think about: Faced with legal pressure, Watchtower can officially put an end to their shunning policy tomorrow without there being any relief from shunning for X-JWs. They would just have to print something like this:

"In the past God's people have been given repeated Bible-based counsel on the need to "quit mixing in company" with those who are unrepentant sinners, or who renounce their Christian dedication by written word or action. (scripture citations) However, today, more and more governments are concerned with enforcing human rights and rights to freedom of religion. Some interpret our faithful adherence to the scriptures' injunction on not associating with disfellowshipped and disassociated ones as being unduly strict to the point of violating human rights and freedom of religion. Hate laws once used to prevent the verbal incitement of hatred toward minority groups are now being used to restrict persons and organizations from publishing religious direction that the state deems as hateful and/or intolerant. ("framing trouble by decree" scripture citation) How should God's people respond to such developments? Jesus taught his followers to be "innocent as doves but cautious as serpents" (scripture citation). To this end, our publications will no longer feature the direction to quit associating with disfellowhipped or disassociated ones. We no longer give the direction to cease communication with such ones. Of course, true Christians know the Bible's direction on such matters and endeavor to follow their Bible-based conscience regardless of the direction or lack of direction given by any individual, government or organization. ("we must obey god as ruler rather than men" scripture citation)"

15

Why "... when it does touch on scientific matters [the Bible] is accurate" is bogus BS.

by Island Man in

jws and other christians would often point to the handful of the bible verses that seem to be scientifically accurate as evidence of its divine inspiration.

but not surprisingly, they ignore the ones that are scientifically inaccurate, or when they address those verses they put a spin on it like saying the account is not a reflection of what the bible is teaching but what men at the time erroneously believed and which god allowed them to record in the bible.

would you believe a jw actually told me that!

Island Man

JWs and other christians would often point to the handful of the bible verses that seem to be scientifically accurate as evidence of its divine inspiration. But not surprisingly, they ignore the ones that are scientifically inaccurate, or when they address those verses they put a spin on it like saying the account is not a reflection of what the bible is teaching but what men at the time erroneously believed and which god allowed them to record in the bible. Really?! Would you believe a JW actually told me that! She said words to that effect to explain the striped-stick pseudo-genetic mumbo jumbo recorded at Genesis 30:37-41:

"Jacob then took freshly cut staffs of the storax, almond, and plane trees, and he peeled white spots in them by exposing the white wood of the staffs. 38 Then he placed the staffs that he had peeled in front of the flock, in the gutters, in the drinking troughs, where the flocks would come to drink, that they might get into heat in front of them when they came to drink.39 So the flocks would get into heat in front of the staffs, and the flocks would produce striped, speckled, and color-patched offspring. 40 Then Jacob separated the young rams and turned the flocks to face the striped ones and all the dark-brown ones among the flocks of Laʹban. Then he separated his own flocks and did not mix them with Laʹban’s flocks. 41 And whenever the robust animals would get into heat, Jacob would place the staffs in the gutters before the eyes of the flocks, that they might get into heat by the staffs. "

Imagine persons who believed the bible to be the inspired and inerrant word of God living 1000 years ago reading that account. What are they going to think about Jacob's pseudoscience? Are they going to think it's bogus or are they going to think it's legit? Is there any hint anywhere in this passage of god's "inspired and inerrant word" to suggest that Jacob's thinking was faulty - that the bible does not endorse his methods as legitimate? No!

The common way that JW apologists try to get around this inconvenient problem is to point at another text later on where Jehovah speaks to Jacob in a dream and tells him that he has been blessing him. The JWs point to this and say: 'See? it was God who made his share of the sheep multiply and not his method'. The problem is the text does not say Jacob's method was bogus. In fact, anyone trying to tell those christians living 1000 years ago that Jacob's method was bogus, and that it was God that increased his portion of the sheep, can be met with this argument:

"Yes, God blessed Jacob's legitimate scientific endeavors to ensure his success, in the same way that God blesses our legitimate agricultural endeavors to give us a good crop. The methods are still working and legitimate even though God ensures it works - or works even better - by his blessing. So God taking credit for it does not prove it was wholly a miraculous work of God and that Jacob's methods were completely wrong and ineffective."

So there are scientific inaccuracies in the bible - if not deliberate then by virtue of poor communication, by virtue of the fact that the bible does not clarify that Jacob's method was indeed bogus.

9

WMSCOG - Another cult à la Watchtower

by Sanchy in

jw
friends

was reading up on the world mission society church of god, or wmscog for short, a south korean church founded in the early 60s by ahn sahn-hong.

the church has a million+ members in over 100 countries.

they believe in god the father (jehovah) and a god the mother, whom they claim to be a living south korean woman named jan gil-ja.

Island Man

This is great information to have. It can be used to our advantage when unwitnessing to JWs. This church can be used to mirror some of the cult aspects of JWs right back at them. For example, you could pretend to be the friend of an ex-WMSCOG member who is being shunned by his family and ask the JWs if they think it's right what the WMSCOG is doing by telling its members to shun former members. It's a great way to criticize Watchtower practices and get a JW to think about it by pointing the finger at another cult that engages in the same practices.

It might be useful to learn about all the negative aspects of WMSCOG that are similar to Watchtower.

30

Why is the approval of family so important?

by jwfacts in

one of the reasons people remain pimo is fear of losing family.

those that are disfellowshipped and shunned regularly comment about how devastated that they have lost the approval of their parents.. when i respond to emails from people saying how difficult it is being estranged or looked down on by their parents, i would like to say that over time they will come to terms with it, except i not sure that people ever do.

i cannot shake that feeling either.

Island Man

Craving the approval of your group is a basic psychological trait of social species, and there is no more important group than your own family.

Watchtower's admitted use of shunning by family to manipulate X-JWs into returning, actually contradicts Matthew 10:37 which says:

"Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me."

If true disciples are to love Jesus more than family then they should be returning to the fold because of their love for Jesus and not because they crave association with family that is being withheld through shunning. By saying that X-JWs won't return if family associate with them, Watchtower is unwittingly conceding that JWs love family more than Jesus, and therefore it requires taking away their family to manipulate them to return to Jesus. A kidnapper holds family ransom for money because he assumes the wealthy value their family more than money. Therefore, if Watchtower uses shunning to hold your family ransom in exchange for your return to Jesus/their cult, it must mean they assume you value your family more than Jesus/their cult.

7

The Resurrection narrative can make perfect sense if you consider it to be a lie.

by Island Man in

there are aspects to the resurrection story that seem unnecessary but make perfect sense if you consider them as patches to shore up the lie of jesus' resurrection.. (1) why did there have to be angels present at jesus' resurrection?

there is no other resurrection account in the bible that mentions the involvement of angels.. possible explanation: jesus' disciples really did steal jesus' body from the tomb.

two or three of them ambushed and knocked/drugged unconscious the guards on the scene before stealing the body.

Island Man

There are aspects to the resurrection story that seem unnecessary but make perfect sense if you consider them as patches to shore up the lie of Jesus' resurrection.

(1) Why did there have to be angels present at Jesus' resurrection? There is no other resurrection account in the bible that mentions the involvement of angels.

Possible explanation: Jesus' disciples really did steal Jesus' body from the tomb. Two or three of them ambushed and knocked/drugged unconscious the guards on the scene before stealing the body. Later when they awaken and find the body missing they relate how they were ambushed and come to the conclusion that this was the work of his disciples. The disciples deny this and claim he was resurrected, but others testify to the fact that the guards were found unconscious, suggesting that foul play really did occur. The disciple explain the unconsciousness by saying there were angels present at the resurrection and the guards were overcome to the point of unconsciousness, by their glory. They further claim that the guards were paid to lie by saying the body was stolen, to hide the fact of the resurrection that they had witnessed.

(2) Why would gospel accounts claim that Jesus' disciples were kept from recognizing the resurrected Jesus? There is no other resurrection account where the resurrected were unrecognizable.

Possible explanation: The "resurrected Jesus" didn't really exist and so no one saw him walking about. How could the disciples reconcile this inconvenient fact with the claim that he was resurrected? Simple: claim that God miraculously kept him from being recognized, so many saw him but didn't know at the time that it was him. This is a very clever bit of deception because it would allow the disciples to convince gullible people who wanted to believe it, that they were actually personal eyewitnesses of the resurrected Jesus but they didn't know it at the time. Imagine: respected leaders in your cult tell you that you saw and spoke to the resurrected Jesus but you are perplexed because you recall no such thing. They explain to you that the reason you don't remember is that you didn't recognize him because his appearance was miraculously masked. "Remember that stranger you spoke to on the road to Emmaus - that was the resurrected Jesus in disguise! You saw and spoke with him!!" I bet more than a few disciples would prefer to believe this lie that puts them in privileged position. There may even have been a Jesus imposter pretending to be the resurrected Jesus.

In other words, some of the unnecessary details in the resurrection narrative could actually be patches invented to cover inconsistencies in reality that disprove the resurrection claim. Why would the disciples have engaged in these deceptions to convince others that Jesus had been resurrected? For the "greater good" of the movement - so that the movement didn't die out through the great grief and disappointment that came with Jesus' death.

7

The god of love and his most loving son Jesus Christ

by Crazyguy in

so their the very essence of love so we are taught so then why at luke 14:26 jesus says in order to be his follower you must hate your mother, father, wife, brothers and sisters.

then you must renounce everything you have.

wow just plain wow, and they call me crazy!

Island Man

I know, right. They worship a selfish, unreasonable being who is displeased with them if they compromise under pressure. Humans are more caring and reasonable than their god. For example, a JW thinks his god will be displeased with him if he signs a document renouncing his faith when faced with the threat of execution. But a husband who truly loves his wife would want her to sign a document purporting to renounce her love for him, to save her life. And banks don't expect bank tellers to faithfully protect the money to the death. They don't fire bank tellers for "breaking their integrity to the bank" by handing over money to armed robbers. The JWs' god is the bank that fires tellers for cooperating with armed robbers to save their life. The JWs god is the husband who wants his wife to die rather than perfunctorily sign a document purporting to renounce her love for him. The JWs' god is quite simply a selfish narcissist who values his ego over human life.

10

Why hasn't the WT spoken out as loudly about Islam as it has catholics?

by Bad_Wolf in

muslims are now outnumbering catholics.

could the gb be all talk, and afraid if they spoke out against them, the last words they would hear at one of their talks would be "aloha snackbar!"?

.

Island Man

The reason Watchtower has been so vocal against the Catholic church is that they see it as a very large tree with lots of low-hanging fruit. So they love to shake the Catholic tree to knock the ripe Catholic fruit into their baskets. Islam is also a large tree but the fruits are very high up and hard to reach and there are lots of hornets nests in it so if they shake that tree they risk inciting a swarm of hornets that will attack them. Besides, the rusty grey knife that they have does not work on - was not designed for - the Islamic fruit.

30

"...You will be Disfellowshipped for 7 years"

by HereIgo in

shortly before i left the "troof" a co had given a talk during his visit.

at the time there was a scandal going on in the congregation where 2 couples basically swapped spouses with each other.

it was quite the scandal.

Island Man

JWs love to say that only unrepentant people are disfellowshipped. But the COs words reveal that appearances trump repentance. If a JW commits a sin that becomes well-known in the non-JW community and brings reproach on the congregation from non-JWs, that JW will be disfellowshipped no matter how truly repentant he is!

The organization values its reputation as sqeeky clean, only true Christians, more than it values love, justice and mercy for the repentant. They're no better than the pharisees mentioned in the bible.

14

Just a survey

by Homer notsimpson in

jw
friends

just to get others opinions and experiences.

out of everyone in the jw organization, how many do you think never get caught doing a "gross sin "?

and how many do you think actually get caught?

Island Man

It's hard to say. I personally think the rate of sin is about the same as with other churches, it's just more hidden because of the disfellowshipping policy. The disfellowshipping policy motivates JWs to go to greater lengths to keep their serious sins hidden, and that in turn creates the illusion that there is less sin among JWs than other churches.

38

How can angels be sexually attracted to women?

by Island Man in

the nephilim account in genesis is utterly ridiculous when you consider that angels are sex-less beings and would therefore lack sex-drive and romantic attraction.

think of how difficult it is for humans with a sex drive to be sexually attracted to animals.

now take away that sex drive and it becomes literally impossible.

Island Man

SlappySlap: "How can human be sexually attracted to animals ? I can't understan[d] it, yet it's possible."

Yes, it's possible - but still relatively rare - because humans have a sex drive as opposed to sexless angels that don't.